weirdelf
By weirdelf, 22 February, 2013
Participants
BlueDemon77
weirdelf
William Saint George
Esker
Beauregard
Rula
brittle light
scribbler
eightmenout
wesley snow
Jenifer James
godshouldnthave
ephraimcrud
Kwabena Agyare
Skill level
Shark Pool
Date
weirdelf

and most welcome. I am excited about this one.

I think I have finally put my nasty, impatient, losing my shit stuff away, with the help of the entire Workshop team and it should be all tree (or cactus) hugging valuable fun.

brittle light

I'm not sure about any group that would have me as a member, but what the hell...
We should be able to survive each other for thirty days. so sign me up, If youdare!

Kidding aside,

I actually appreciate you guys who Know how to pull these things together
thanks

S

Go ahead and count me in . Lord knows I need as much help in understanding subtext and such as I can get. But it might take me a few days after start date before I do anything other than submit my poem...............stan

Esker

Esker

12 years 2 months ago

I might actually join in on something!! see how life here at the position
is ....Might be able to devote more to working then just writing!!!

Rula

Rula

12 years 2 months ago

Though I'm not a shark
to swim in this pool
Yet I've always thought
that learning new things is cool

Thanks for the invitation .

weirdelf

Please remember to tick “Show And Tell- Intensive critique” in the workshop drop-down box on the poem submission page and include “(Shark Pool Show and Tell)” after the title of your poem.

Also we will have a few days discussion on the terms of critique before posting any poems for critique.

Please wait till you are asked to post a poem so that we don't get overwhelmed with postings. All posting to the workshop can be found at the link at the top right of this page
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/11251
(Ron! Slap on wrist)

godshouldnthave

Set in motion upon a sinister temple vane thump ticking
for no less than two minutes of liquor lubricated self-debating
with my many a selfishly self hating slave selves in waiting...

I and the bloody gone thirsty for progress in culture curved mirror envy,
oh we will agree that it to be ignored is to be cast off so dis-courteously
So let us unite here to challenge our own words wills as spat into eventuality
humbly and bumbly in none other than a love foolery spree by you, thee, and me.

weirdelf

to this workshop, using the dropdown list at the bottom of the poem submission page, and remember to put in brackets (Shark Pool critique) after the title. this is to avoid scaring off newcomers.

And wait your turn to give everyone a fair go at the critique.
William Saint George will post a poem to be critiqued by
ephraimcrud who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Beauregard who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Esker who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Rula who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
brittle light who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
scribbler who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
etc etc.
Allowing a couple of days for each critique so that it proceeds in an orderly manner and no-one is ignored

weirdelf

First, how harsh is harsh? If you can't find a redeeming feature in a poem, and some poems have none, how do you say so?

S

Well if we go back to the sandwich technique i guess one could say something like "This poem displays a lot of emotion but it could use some real work on---fill in the blank.....which I am sure you can do much better than I." Then you could give a few specific examples on how a line here and there could be reworded. This can leave the writer free to change as she/he sees fit while also pointing the way toward improvement and also making it clear that there's plenty of room for improvement. Or one could be harsh and say something like " Man this is a poor excuse for poetry" which is not only harsh but will pretty well assure your advice in the future will likely go unread as well as unheeded....................stan

BlueDemon77

It should never be our intent to be consciously cruel. Criticism is one thing, obliterating is another. I think it's our duty to state the truth about the work we critique, but to do so with an air of a fellow poet.

Ron

Rula

doesn't work with all people especially soft covered -just like me :)
Stan and Beau have said it all indeed !

BlueDemon77

That sums it up well. This is a workshop to help poets with their work by potentially discovering flaws that stop the work from reaching its' potential. Personal attacks and condescenscion should never play a part.

Ron

S

If there is a concern that the people being addressed don't know the technical terms or language of whatever subject is being discussed it's best to avoid the terms. In engineering it does no good to mention moment arms with a lay person. just say resistance to deflection. Since this shop is open to all levels In my opinion it would be best to avoid technical jargon. After all this shop is about intensive critique , not learning poetic vocabulary. And those here who Do know the language can as easily say flow or beat as rhythm or repeated sounds as illitteration...........................stan

J

I sort of agree and sort of disagree... I have taught adults in simple language so that people don't get lost - but that can become patronising too. All professionals (or serious people) have developed their own language and terms which can be viewed as intimidating by others - so good to keep some awareness around that. I would suggest explanations are given to clarify terms - I liked ( Beauregard's link, by the way) so that there is another element of adult learning here without talking down. It would disappointing if there good poets are put off , or poets with a good basis of language feel it is too simple.

wesley snow

This is the Shark Pool and I would encourage everyone to discuss the poem with whatever level of understanding they have. We can always clarify later and some technical terms tossed about judiciously might send someone to their craft books or Beau's link.
I have always wanted poets to be critical of my work in the most honest fashion, so I have no fear of this workshop. Indeed, I look forward to it.
The only rule I think need be followed is the standard- critique the poem, not the poet. And of course let's not use "ugly" language. Remember that the grandest compliment one can give an artist is being able to tear their work apart. Junk cannot be critiqued. If someone can be critical of each line in a poem of mine, I can only feel that I'm "on to something". The worst thing I can hear is- "nice poem wes, needs work."
I want to swim with sharks, not goldfish.

brittle light

...like trying to herd cats. Defining lines and limits is ok, but be prepared for anything to happen...sometimes detrimental to the cause, sometimes brilliant surprises....stay loose

S

Nobody else out there to disagree with me? I don't mean we should talk down to anybody but we all need to remember that although this is a shark pool it has also been opened to minnows like me so don't use technical terms just to prove you know them lol..............stan

S

scientific term is alopias vulpinus but no need to get technical lmao.......................stan

Rula

Rula

12 years 1 month ago

You are real sharks You make these technical terms like minnows , easily can be digested.
thanks Beau for the link . It is more than satisfying.

S

Will there be a limit to poem length?.....................stan

weirdelf

to this workshop, using the dropdown list at the bottom of the poem submission page, and remember to put in brackets (Shark Pool critique) after the title. this is to avoid scaring off newcomers.

And wait your turn to give everyone a fair go at the critique.
William Saint George will post a poem to be critiqued by
ephraimcrud who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Beauregard who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Esker who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Rula who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
brittle light who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
scribbler who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
etc etc.
Allowing a couple of days for each critique so that it proceeds in an orderly manner and no-one is ignored

weirdelf

Yes, this is the toughest Workshop on Neopoet, but all rules of respect are adhered to. You are totally free to disagree with critique given and accept or reject suggestions.

We just do away with the soft soap here.

S

Oh mista Jess, Ah'm So relieved to know that ah'm not guina be assaulted bah a buncha rood people ..............stan................but seriously to all newbies, If I joined you know it won't be That bad

E

Jess,

I am listed twice in the participants. should i just go with the first listing?

thanks,

wesley snow

How far down are we on the list? How long do I have (wait, that's two questions)?
I'm writing original for the workshop and I'm almost through, but you can't rush these things... especially if I'm going to have it ripped to dog food.

S

Jess said he would PM when it comes your turn or my turn or each person's turn. ..............stan

weirdelf

Try to follow the instructions on the thread.

We post a poem, one person critiques is, then the rest of us critique the critique.

You will find poems posted to the workshop at the link top right of this page
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/11251
 

And above all please don't post until asked to! This is to allow everyone a fair go at their works.

Although Ron and godshouldnthave have already posted the order, once again is:

William Saint George will post a poem to be critiqued by
ephraimcrud who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Beauregard who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Esker who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Rula who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
brittle light who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
scribbler who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
eightmenout who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
wesley snow who will later post a poem to be critiqued by
Jenifer James who will later post a poem to be critiqued by godshouldnthave

William Saint George and ephraimcrud should post now

Please remember to tick “Show And Tell- Intensive critique” in the workshop box on the poem submission page and include (Shark Pool Show and Tell) after the title of your poem.

 

William Saint George

Since we'll all have a go at the assigned participant's critique, I suggest the critique should have a title like I've done with this comment.

It should make the critique easy to identify when the comment stream becomes very long.

Just a suggestion.

weirdelf

It raises another issue in this workshop. How to give specific suggestions that the poet can relate directly back to their poetry.
I usually quote the line in question and put the suggestion in square brackets at the end of the line. Is that helpful?
Stan usually quotes the stanza and line number and makes a suggestion. Is that preferable?

Any suggestions?

weirdelf

in the last post I said how Stan and I do it .
Show us how you do it.
And forget the sandwitch technique. Be harsh and make suggestions.
My question is how to make suggestions so the poet will understand them and relate them directly back to the poem.

weirdelf

There has been some acrimony and even perhaps censuring (do not mistake the word for censoring) about the critiques of critiques.
The objectives are "To hone our skills in critique to enhance our understanding of poetry and be better able to give fellow poets meaningful feedback to help improve their craft."

The syllabus encourages a vigorous critique, it does not request a thesis. Remember that for those of us back in the stone age still sitting at desks and typing on keyboards, not reclining in an armchair with a 'puterbook, we still read screen by screen and I guarantee you that long critiques or replies will not be read in full by most readers. I know this for a fact because clearly most syllabuses are not read in full by participants.

I'm not saying "dumb it down", quite the opposite, I'm saying make every word count towards helping the poet improve their poem in your opinion. Subjectivity and objectivity have been well discussed.

weirdelf

http://www.neopoet.com/comment/86611#comment-86611
and
http://www.neopoet.com/comment/86618#comment-86618
They are Stan about Rula's work and Beau about Al's work.
Points to consider. Does the critique help the poet improve the poem and does your critique of their critique help them appreciate more, or less, about poetry.

Everyone will get a turn, I'm just spacing them out a little. Imagine if everyone posted their poem at once! Through no lack of care or appreciation you would get little attention, so please be patient.

weirdelf

Remember, if you want feedback on your poem or crit, you also need to give feedback on others.

10 poems have been posted for crit and crit on crit, have responded to them all?

S

I'll give it a shot. I've only read it once and even so have ideas for improvement. I'll stay away from message though as I don't think arguing philosophy is what you want. Just holler if you want me to take a bite at this lol............stan PS I know there are many much better free versers here than I so no offense will be taken if you decide to use someone else

weirdelf

I'm afraid the workshop is very close to finishing, however if you follow this link
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/11251
you will find all the poems posted so far and you can see each one has a "Workshop Critique" which the other participants then critique the critique itself. Feel free to contribute your views there and then if time perhaps you can post one of your poems for critique.

I will add you to the participants list so that your comments can be highlighted as part of the workshop.

weirdelf

This workshop is now ended.
Thankyou all for your invaluable participation and input.

Please give me feedback, either here or by PM, as to how you benefited from the workshop and criticisms, ways future workshops could be improved,

S

I don't think this makes but the second of your shops I've participated in. However I've tracked most of the ones I Didn't join. So maybe my saying this might be the best one you've run so far counts for something. The instructions were clear. The participation level was high.

Now on to shops in general. It is my belief that the shorter the duration of a shop, the more involved people will be and the less chance they'll drop out. So the only real advice which might have helped this shop and others is to not let one or two members slow it down too much. Be clear that those who fall behind without good cause will be left behind. It is more important that the majority of members benefit from a reasonable pace that it is that those who for whatever reason lag behind be waited upon. Sounds kind of mean I know but that's my belief.

I appreciate the time you spent running this shop and I think all benefited in that they probably will not be as hesitant to give needed advice on others' poetry in the future...............stan

wesley snow

I agree. It's a little harsh, but "keep up or be left behind". If poets find that a workshop can be bogged down by a lax response, those who will lag behind will be encouraged to allow it to happen and those who are prompt will become (at the least)- bored, (at the worst)- irritated. Bored and irritated poets don't participate in later workshops.
Jess, this shop moved forward promptly even considering the difficulties organizing the original critiques in the beginning.
Also, this format is sound. Now that it has been worked out, I suggest it be repeated every quarter.

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

I participated with much fear as it was the first shark pool to do, but as it goes on with all those who participated,my discomfort started to disappear and i started to enjoy how everyone was receiving the critique. Sometimes it went down and slow due to one reason or another but this is OK I think.If I would suggest anything for improving, it would be to limit the participants' number so that one can concentrate more on each piece and the critiques submited

Many thanks for all the shop leaders for giving the time and the effort. I know this isn't easy to be achieved without having a strong will to help others to improve.
Thank you

wesley snow

Rula, it is virtually impossible for me to say no to ANYONE who shows an interest in participating. It's much easier to deal with large groups in something like Storytelling in Verse because it is a long term workshop with special circumstances (we're writing stories which generally means much larger works). In that workshop we have plenty of time to be tardy and a large work will mean a larger commitment, so no one will drop out because the shop is slow- that's its character.
In the short term workshops it is harder to maintain enthusiasm and NeoPoet wants to grow, so we don't want to deny participation for any reason if we can help it. We want poets contributing and telling the world what they are contributing to. That's how snowballs are made.
I would rather brainstorm for solutions on how to keep the shop briskly paced and relevant than send someone away because they were tardy in signing up.
By the way Rula, I was pleased with your contributions in this workshop. Not just the quality of your critiques, but because critiquing (anything and everything) is precisely what you will be asked to do on a regular basis as a mentor.

Rula

I thought we musn't let our enthusiasm lead us so that we sacrifice the quality for the quantity. :)
However, neither would I say no to any participant if I had the chance to lead a workshop in the future.

weirdelf

I also have personal issues about whether I am being too controlling or not. Some say let it be, some say drive 'em hard. We all learn as we go running these things and will all develop our own styles.

wesley snow

Your workshop was in the Shark Pool. That should be enough said. However, strangely, I think the highest level of discipline needs to be in the Splash Pool. "Train up your children in the way they must go and they will never depart from it."
Theoretically, by the time a poet is willing to swim in the Olympic Pool (or heaven forbid, swim with sharks) one would think discipline is no longer a problem. But then I've noticed the more esoteric the artist, the looser is his regimen.
But Shark Pool, dude. Sharks. If the blood isn't a tawdry color of rud, then someone needs to open the gates and let them loose.

S

One way to maintain pace is to give sufficient time for each participant to complete the step which is required. If they don't get that step done in time, move them to the end of the line and let them catch up with their work then. It doesn't delete them from the shop, doesn't allow them to slow the pace yet encourages them to be punctual so that their works will be read and commented on first while enthusiasm is still high. And of course any preliminary discussion should have a reasonable time limit also with it being understood that later thoughts can still be tagged onto the end of discussion phase...................stan

Leaders: BlueDemon77and weirdelf

Moderators: weirdelf, beauregard

Description: Each participant will submit one poem they feel needs work, one they are having trouble perfecting, or feel is under-appreciated. One other participant will be assigned to give it a vigorous critique at every level. Some of the areas or topics of the critique would include
- form, rhyme, assonance, consonance, meter, poetic technique (metaphor, alliteration, ect.) and how effective it is to the readers understanding of the work. Ultimately the critic should quantify the poem, including how well it works and how it relates to the content
- content, what the content is, whether it is significant, meaningful, true. What is revealed by exposition and in -subtext. Do you agree with it the writers opinion as you see it? Why?
- style, is the poem well crafted?, is there a strong lexis? Interesting and creative use of language?
- imagery, what imagery is used, what kinds, how effective is it?
-emotional content, what are the feelings evoked? Are they "universal'? Are they genuine or masked by sentiment?
- epiphany, does the poem change you? Have a significant impact on your way of seeing the world? If not does it matter? What does it give you?
- redemption, does the poem offer an insight into the human condition? The betterment of the species? Political understanding? Does it need to?

Subjective impressions are encouraged. You’ll give the poem a thorough working over.

Then other participants will critique the critique itself.

Finally the original poet has a right of reply and can submit a revised version.

 

Objectives: To hone our skills in critique to enhance our undertanding of poetry and be better able to give fellow poets menaingful feedback to help improve their craft.

Please remember to tick “Show And Tell- Intensive critique” in the workshop box on the poem submission page and include “(Shark Pool Show and Tell)” after the title of your poem.

We’ll open with a discussion of critique.

This will be challenging for both those critiquing and those being critiqued. Complete honesty is the best approach. This is a unique opportunity to have group attention and focused critique to a piece or pieces of your choosing (we can always begin anew if the group is interested in doing so). This workshop can help our critical abilities as well as our ability as poets. Leave the kid gloves at home though, this is Shark Pool. While we will have a policy of 'across the board' respect, the key to the success of the workshop is honesty in the critiques.

Please join us!

Ron and Jess

Level of expertise: Open to all